Curse

xxUnReaLxx1 · May 05, 2010, 05:44 PM // 17:44

So I had an idea, to mend the obv. broken pvp system, that a few others agreed with...
As we all know, damage is highly more imbalanced than defense, healing, and protection, thus making all HA a race to who can use the most retarded builds with the most retarded hexes to make the other teams backline collapse ( most gimmicks ). If anet nerfed damage completely for 8v8 , so no lame gimmicks where people grab a ton of lame ass builds, go in without any coordination, and win, were stopped due to a major backline buff (for 8v8 mind you; not smaller pvp) where the only real way to kill something vs people who atleast have some brains, would be coordination & cooporation. For example, killing a member of the enemy team would force you to atleast disable one of the monks for a short time while forcing all your damage on one target. Or it would force proper inturupts before a kill would ever go through. Eliminating retarded OP hexes/damage/gimicks by increasing backline strength would force people to play better in order to win, reduce broken meta grind, and overall make real players happier.

Just a thought, anyone have an opinion?

FoxBat · May 05, 2010, 06:03 PM // 18:03

First time I've heard that defense isn't overpowered. Then again you guys run HB instead of WoH.

Seeping wound is dumb, once that goes "balance" will rule again. Let the kids have their hexfun, better teams will still beat them.

Neo Atomisk · May 05, 2010, 06:12 PM // 18:12

making the backlines collapse?
wow, you make it sound like killing monks is a bad thkng.

whats wrong with quicker matches? do you want all matches to last into overtime or something?

Martin Alvito · May 05, 2010, 06:21 PM // 18:21

There are two possible regimes in this game:

1) Offensive: maximize damage output, subject to the condition of bringing just enough defense to stay alive. HA happens to reward this approach for several reasons:
- AoE damage scales up in Halls, dealing lots of damage to both teams because players are forced to contend over a central location
- You get more fame per hour if you can kill quickly, thus ending matches early
- The dynamics cause two teams to focus fire on a single team in 3-way maps, and there is no reliable way to hold out against two teams AND have enough skill slots left over for relic run utility and killing things

2) Defensive: maximize survivability, subject to the condition of bringing just enough offense to kill things. The GvG AT format rewards this approach because:
- Larger maps introduce additional options (relocate/split) for relieving pressure and avoiding teamwipes
- It is always 1v1, reducing the total amount of damage that can be brought to bear
- Single elimination tournaments reward consistency. Offensive approaches in GvG are more effective overall, but are high variance. It is easier to force mistakes and harder to recover from your own with an offensive build.

In short, the problems you identify with HA are fundamental, and driven by map objectives. GvG is no better. One of the principal reasons that the game is out of balance is that the devs have to attempt to balance two formats with radically different incentive systems using the same skills. It's hard enough to balance one format, let alone both.

Xsiriss · May 05, 2010, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Uh people are MEANT to die in PvP, defense has never been a particular weak aspect in pvp (a few OP skills aside).

Skyy High · May 05, 2010, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

There are two possible regimes in this game:

1) Offensive: maximize damage output, subject to the condition of bringing just enough defense to stay alive. HA happens to reward this approach for several reasons:
- AoE damage scales up in Halls, dealing lots of damage to both teams because players are forced to contend over a central location
- You get more fame per hour if you can kill quickly, thus ending matches early
- The dynamics cause two teams to focus fire on a single team in 3-way maps, and there is no reliable way to hold out against two teams AND have enough skill slots left over for relic run utility and killing things

2) Defensive: maximize survivability, subject to the condition of bringing just enough offense to kill things. The GvG AT format rewards this approach because:
- Larger maps introduce additional options (relocate/split) for relieving pressure and avoiding teamwipes
- It is always 1v1, reducing the total amount of damage that can be brought to bear
- Single elimination tournaments reward consistency. Offensive approaches in GvG are more effective overall, but are high variance. It is easier to force mistakes and harder to recover from your own with an offensive build.

In short, the problems you identify with HA are fundamental, and driven by map objectives. GvG is no better. One of the principal reasons that the game is out of balance is that the devs have to attempt to balance two formats with radically different incentive systems using the same skills. It's hard enough to balance one format, let alone both.

Very nice summary of the way things are.

*lemming* · May 05, 2010, 06:56 PM // 18:56

The idea of applying a global damage reduction effect to pvp has been brought up before. It hasn't met with a lot of support.

Greedy Gus · May 05, 2010, 07:00 PM // 19:00

You definitely want to nerf mindless spam offensive stuff like fire-and-forget hexes, fire ele buttonmashers, 12345 sins, etc. But defense & backlines are hardly in the clear here, they've been one of the more heavily buffed areas over the longterm (mainly by avoiding the obvious nerf cycles that eventually follow most dartboard buff udpates).

Like martin mentioned, playerbases in general arrive at their own equilibriums between offense and defense based mostly on each particular format. The best you can do is change the format if something is really problematic (like the gvg endgame), and focus your balance efforts more on balancing individual skills' power based on subjective measures of desirability (does something reward thinking or player skill, have interesting risk/reward, make for a fun meta, etc.) and relative power levels generally between pure offense/defense skills and utility/toolbox options (work on combating power creep).

jazilla · May 05, 2010, 07:06 PM // 19:06

The other problem is that the people making suggestions are usually only taking one PvP arena into account when making said suggestion. It just doesn't work.

xxUnReaLxx1 · May 05, 2010, 07:21 PM // 19:21

I totally agree with you on the fact that it isnt a good idea to mash the same skills into both Ha and gvg, They are different play styles completely and you are correct. I think some people are misunderstanding... The point of HA isnt to grind matches as fast as you can, go play something retarded like 8 rtl eles if you tihnk like that, I like having a good run of smart players with brains, who know how to play, and most matches go by fast enough with a nice balanced. The amount of damage in the game vs the max amount of health, and defense is out of whack. Right now pvp is a matter of who can use retarded crap to blow away the enemy fastest, I mean some skill and talent of the player makes that change to an extent, but for the most part its about who can run the more retarded over powered build. That is not fun to me, and MANY others. I would rather have 10 minute balanced vs balanced matches, where it takes the skill of your team to win, instead of retarded overpowered skills on your teams bar vs another gimmick running almost identicle lame crap and the match explodes in 2 or 3 minutes .

i agree 100% with the fact HA is more map oriented and completely different than gvg, i am not putting the two under the same umbrella, but its a problem in both.

I am not saying buffing defense(possibly) and/or nerfing damage is balanced, Its just more fun and less retarded, because it will require atleast an ounce of skill to pull off a win. And that should be what it is like,

tl;dr : This mess of who can use the most retarded OP damage to wipe the other team fastest isnt fun, I think it should be nerfed to a point where a brain is required to win.

kedde · May 06, 2010, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Everything needs a nerf, not just damage.
If offense is the only part where you need a brain for it to function, then defense would be retarded.

It needs to be difficult to do optimum damage, but it also needs to be damn difficult to stay alive.

The fact that fullscale pressure build vs pressure builds aren't fun matchups is all due to the fact that the skills used in them are retardedly boring and shallow.
Condition pressure against some old heavy physical team was RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing fun.

Nerf Me Haha · May 06, 2010, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Nerf all damage?
Sure, let's run Rspike or some other build with 3, or 2 monks + 6 Rits each of them with party heals.
We will still be able to kill things, right?

stretchs · May 06, 2010, 01:02 PM // 13:02

I would never say that the backline is overpowered in our meta, if anything, deaths = more entertaining matches. I think what most people would prefer though, is to see deaths through good coordinated, calculated play, instead of the set it and forget it nonsense of hexghey that we have seen quite often recently.

Plus the more power you give the backline, the more likely you get bent over by the lame tie break nonsense that anet has put us with at the end of a match.

I would say, go back to rewarding good coordinated guild play and leave the buffing backlines out of things.

I know I want to see 2 monks holding both teams up for 28 minutes with no deaths only to see the match end with 1 team getting 1 hit on the lord and winning =\

xxUnReaLxx1 · May 06, 2010, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Not saying backline needs a buff after giving it a thought, but as of now, backline requires more of a brain than damage...and to the extent it is now its wrong and bad. Easy/quick team kills and wipes should be rewarded for teamwork & coordination, not abusing retarded damage skills that the user doesnt even have to think about half the time.
Tbh, nerfing /tweaking damage = less defensive spots on a team needed in the midline=more room for coordination skills and things that require something more than mindless click skill>tab>hex>tab>etc...imo i think it would be more interesting, more fun since it requires a brain to rape teams in a minute, and open new more complex depth to pvp.

kosh · May 06, 2010, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

The other problem is that the people making suggestions are usually only taking one PvP arena into account when making said suggestion. It just doesn't work.

this is very true, i know that part of the problem was always the updates were meant for someone, but i was never for sure for who, just think b4 the pvp/pve everything you did forced every one in gw. i think that's part of the reason TA was taking out, you cant balanced pve,gvg,ha,ra,ta,hb with the team krowe you have now. its just to much. they couldn't even keep up with the bi monthly update,

its not the i blame them. its just to much for the team.

when HA had the focus on it, it was fun and nice, but when you balance gvg and ha is left with broken builds what can you do.
for me it s-way i think.
as a war LR+RaO and all that shit just mad me rage and leave HA. that combo was around for ages and a.net did nothing.

well gw2 is going to rule this mmo universe so im happy.